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 Specialist Components fuel injection system (currently 1,805 views) |
| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: October 17th, 2020, 15:10:45 |
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I'm hoping someone on the forum can help me - I'm sure I've seen in one of the club magazine, or read on the forum that someone is running the Specialist Components fuel injection system.
Is this correct, or have I made this up in my mind?
I ask as, after negotiating with my missus (it is pretty darned expensive) that this could look to cure the MM's running problem. But before committing to this I'm trying to work out if this system will fit in the MM engine bay without modifying the bulkhead.
https://www.specialist-compone.....rottle-body-kit.html
The (possible) issue being this system uses a horizontally mounted throttle body, the standard MPi being vertical on top of the inlet manifold.
I also need to consider that the bonnet sits closer to the engine than on a mini (I can't fit the standard MPi airbox on top of the TB). I'd be happier having to modify the bonnet to accommodate a deeper inlet set up, than to try and fit a bulkhead box (as when running a Weber).
I've got in touch with SC and asked them to provide dimensional information so hopefully I can measure up, but there's no substitute for experience. So anyone who does have experience of this system I'd appreciate tapping in to your knowledge.
Thank you.
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Last modified October 17th, 2020, 15:11:43 by Graham Bichard |
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| mike brown |
| Posted on: October 17th, 2020, 15:27:04 |
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Location: Southampton
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What about using megasquirt or similar to run on your existing set up. I know very little about it but I do know megasquirt is used on lots of rover V8s.
Mike |
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: October 17th, 2020, 17:17:35 |
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Maximum Member2
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Mike,
I've heard of megasquirt on the Turbominis forum. But I believe you have to construct this unit and while I think I am going to have to try and learn all about this programmable ECU lark, I think that might be a bit beyond me. The SC system being a bit more plug and play.
What price convenience? (About £1800 apparently)
One other small thing - the SC system continues to work with the Rover immobiliser and alarm. Not a reason on it's own to select this unit, but I do know the IVA requires an alarm/mobiliser.
But if you have any experience of the megasquirt and can tell me it's not as daunting as I think it might be, I'm prepared to be convinced. |
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| John Dickens |
| Posted on: October 18th, 2020, 06:26:47 |
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| mike brown |
| Posted on: October 18th, 2020, 08:23:31 |
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Big Member
Location: Southampton
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Megasquirt-V8 is a friend of mine his main thing is rover v8 but he's a nice guy so have a chat. You don't need an alarm/ immobiliser for IVA mine just went with door, ignition and steering locks.
Mike |
Last modified October 18th, 2020, 09:02:08 by mike brown |
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: October 18th, 2020, 19:50:24 |
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Maximum Member2
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John, thanks for the link. It does look to be cheaper (half the price, if not more) but, if I'm being honest, still a little scary.
Mike - Megasquirt-V8 is who, and how do I contact him for a chat? |
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| mike brown |
| Posted on: October 18th, 2020, 20:10:11 |
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Big Member
Location: Southampton
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Nigel Barker at https://www.megasquirt-v8.co.uk/ms_what_is_ms.php
If you mention me at all you may need to remind him I had a tomcat and now an ibex.
Might also be worth a look at lr4x4 forum there is a section in tools purely for megasquirt.
Mike |
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| John Dickens |
| Posted on: October 20th, 2020, 06:22:44 |
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“ |
Quoted from Graham Bichard, posted October 18th, 2020, 19:50:24 at here |
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John, thanks for the link. It does look to be cheaper (half the price, if not more) but, if I'm being honest, still a little scary.
Mike - Megasquirt-V8 is who, and how do I contact him for a chat?
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It's a steep learning curve. I built my own efi system, including all the hardware, from scratch for my VW Beetle engined UVA but, having done it once I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.
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Reply: 7 - 33 |
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| mike brown |
| Posted on: October 24th, 2020, 23:52:21 |
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Big Member
Location: Southampton
Posts: 427
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Just spoken to a mate that understands megasquirt. He's said the best person to talk to is Shaun O'Donnell
Ms2 Tuning
Mobile +44 7891 512664
Mike |
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: October 25th, 2020, 19:22:57 |
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Maximum Member2
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Thanks Mike - I'll call tomorrow. I dropped Nigel Barker a line last week too. Waiting for a response.
I mocked up the inlet manifold and carb that came with the car way back when this weekend, to take some measurements. From the info (drawing of measurements) SC sent me I think their system would fit although I wasn't able to get to the car this weekend to confirm.
If I can get some info regarding the megasquirt and using it with the current set up I can make an informed decision which way to go. |
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| mike brown |
| Posted on: October 26th, 2020, 17:19:42 |
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Big Member
Location: Southampton
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According to my friend megasquirt 2 would be best suited and should work with existing sensors etc once set up. How much work and grief it is though I don't know.
Mike |
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| John Dickens |
| Posted on: October 27th, 2020, 07:34:12 |
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The thing about the Megasquirt is that there is a massive amount of information out there from users and builders and their responses are practically instant
The Megasquirt 2 would definitely do the job.. |
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Reply: 11 - 33 |
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: October 30th, 2020, 12:41:28 |
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John - I've reached out to Shaun, as suggested by Mike. He hasn't done anything with an A-Series before, but doesn't see it as being too difficult.
I've sent over information I've gathered over the years regarding the MPI system as developed by Rover (Mike Theaker) and an 'electronic library', which provides further details of the FI system and the sensors which the MPi cars/loom has as standard.
Shaun is also able to supply looms as well as MS2 building, so hopefully a simple engine loom swap (if needed).
I've said I'll call him back next week to discuss further if he's able to help.
And as you say, there does look to be a lot of knowledge out there regarding Megasquirt (I'm aware of it via the Turbominis forum where it seems to be used a lot and is widely discussed), so hopefully the software is well know if the car needs to be set up on a rolling road.
Hopefully this could be the more cost effective solution!
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Last modified October 30th, 2020, 12:42:37 by Graham Bichard |
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: November 1st, 2020, 11:35:57 |
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Maximum Member2
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I've received a reply from Shaun. He needs some more info and had a few questions that I'm going to call him back this week and try and answer.
The 'estimate' for cost for this solution would look to be around 2/3 the SC system at the moment (further info needed to provide an more definitive answer. So not as cheap as I'd first predicted, but a potential healthy saving none the less.
Reaching out on the other forum for some advice on using Megasquirt - how easy it is to use and if anyone else has got it on an MPi car, it was suggested that I look at using an Emerald ecu. A bit of research on this shows it's a product developed/sold by Dave Walker.
I've enjoyed reading articles written by Dave Walker for many years, first coming across him in Cars & Car Conversions.
One of the articles on his website refers to fitting FI to a midget A-Series car:
http://www.emeraldm3d.com/articles/cat/projects/post/midget_Project/
Reading this he comes to the same conclusion I think as SC, in so much as it isn't really possible to efficiently port inject the A-Series because of the siamese ports, better to run an 'electronic carb' wet manifold solution as efficiently as possible.
I believe the MPi mini ran the biggest standard Rover injectors available to try and get sufficient fuel into the engine so potentially there's a limitation here?
I'll give Shaun a call as I say. It may be possible to run the standard set up with Megasquirt with more control to optimise the standard set up.
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Reply: 13 - 33 |
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| Neil KilBane |
| Posted on: November 2nd, 2020, 19:20:48 |
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Maximum Member2
just a little fine tuning left to do.
Location: Newtown Forbes, Ireland
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Reply: 14 - 33 |
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: November 2nd, 2020, 20:23:29 |
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Maximum Member2
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Neil - you shouldn't be showing me things like that! I'm going to have to google this now 
(And no - I hadn't seen this (I don't do facebook, twitter etc) |
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: November 14th, 2020, 18:18:58 |
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Maximum Member2
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Well, I've started doing (more) homework on this, prompted by some information from Shaun who's been very helpful.
To use the megasquirt will require a trigger wheel fitting - not essential (the MPi system can be used) but advised. But reading about megasquirt on several forums has given me food for thought because of the Siamese port configuration.
This looks (early days in my learning remember) to ideally require two wideband lambda sensors to try and balance the mixture from inner and outer cylinders) and requires 'additional' code to work best.
I've read that Rover fitted the largest injectors they had for their range of cars to the MPi minis, to try and get enough fuel into the short open window of the 'paired' inlet valves. So now the engine is modified, would even higher flowing injectors be required and if so, available?
Lot of questions, but I'm quite enjoying the distraction of trying to learn about all this.
So it'll probably be after Christmas in all honesty before I progress this, but lets see how we get on - I'll let you know! |
Last modified November 14th, 2020, 18:20:14 by Graham Bichard |
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: January 3rd, 2021, 14:21:20 |
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Maximum Member2
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Right - decision made.
After trying to get my head around Siamese port injection and all that entails, I'm going to plump for the Specialist Components system. I'm sure this won't come as a surprise to those that know my fear of electrics/electronics, and while it is still a 'cheat' (more of an electronically controlled carburettor than port injection) it does look to be much simpler to install.
In order to fit the megasquirt it is advisable to fit a trigger wheel - not in itself a huge job, but one that does need the engine mounts loosening/engine lifting to access.
Also required are as far as I can tell, replacement injectors. In fact, in order to get enough fuel into the correct cylinder in the short amount of time available, others have had to resort to modifying the Rover MPI inlet manifold to house two additional injectors. To run on a Siamese port engine the injectors need to be operated by the megasquirt in conjunction with additional code written specifically for a Siamese set up I believe - even with significant help this might be a little beyond me, if not for the physical install but the adjustment required afterward.
To operate correctly a second lambda sensor should also be used - one for the inner pair of cylinders, one to measure one of the outer cylinders - this would require a different exhaust manifold (or modification to the stainless item fitted which I can't do myself).
While there is still a noticeable difference in price, the megasquirt solution isn't quite as cheap as it first looked it might be when everything is considered.
And I'm taking the easy way out I think - while not as simple as 'plug-n-play', the SC solution is almost that easy (I hope - I've ordered it now!).
I do have a question over whether I can make the SC set up fit with the current bulkhead, with the air filter fitted. We'll have to offer it up and see. I've ordered a short stack (as is used with this electronic carb set up on turbo installations) in case I need to route a remote filter set up.
So there we go - that's what I've spent my limited Christmas free time doing. I hope you've all enjoyed the Christmas break, and hopefully we can all look towards a better New Year.
Oh - and if anyone is interested in or thinking of using megasquirt on a Siamese port engine (A-Series, B-Series) I can recommend reading through the many posts on the Turbominis forum. And if you were thinking of going the megasquirt route, Shaun O'Donnell was very helpful (and very patient as I tried to understand what he was telling me!).
Happy New Year to all. |
Last modified January 3rd, 2021, 14:23:34 by Graham Bichard |
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| Bent Larsen |
| Posted on: January 7th, 2021, 09:32:48 |
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Location: Denmark
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Hi Graham
Now, after months of trying, I managed to lock in.
It's probably my MM you've seen, I bought and mounted such a set from SC and it gave approx. 10hp.
But it was too sensitive / unstable - so I dismantled it again
Bent |
Last modified January 10th, 2021, 05:43:13 by Bent Larsen |
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: January 16th, 2021, 19:34:38 |
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Hi Bent.
I'd be interested in hearing more of the issues you had with the SC system, plus any photos you may have of the set up.
Unfortunately I don't really have much choice but to pursue this option (fuel injection and programmable ecu) to get the car through the IVA, so any hints and tips you have would be appreciated.
I'm a bit busy with work at the minute so not so much progress but hopefully in a few weeks this will change.
First question I have though is how/where did you choose to mount the fuel pressure regulator? The instruction say not to mount this on the engine (makes sense) - I'm thinking of making a small bracket to mount to the bulkhead.
Cheers, |
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| Bent Larsen |
| Posted on: January 28th, 2021, 14:42:44 |
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Medium Member
Location: Denmark
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Hi Graham
I don't know if it is my mechanic who was stressed or did not get acquainted with that brand.
It worked fine when we started and used a file for a Cooper and he thought I should drive a long ride so we could fine tune it later.
Then I drove to Stoneleigh and it drove fine, after I got home it started teasing: the TPS sensor shorted and it started to "forget" the settings.
So in the end I disassembled it all and reassembled my old HS 6 - and it works |
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: February 17th, 2021, 18:29:21 |
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Maximum Member2
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Bent,
Can I ask - did you have much clearance between the air filter and the bulkhead when you fitted this kit?
Offering the manifold up it's going to be very tight.
Thanks, |
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| Bent Larsen |
Posted on: February 18th, 2021, 09:17:58
 Attachment: p01.jpeg - 46.16 KB (2202 views) |
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Location: Denmark
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There has probably been a double carburetor before, so a big hole has been cut in the bulkhead, so I had plenty of room
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: February 20th, 2021, 13:04:30 |
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Maximum Member2
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So the inlet manifold fits - it's tight but it fits:
There are a couple of issues ot be addressed.
1. The Specialist Components stainless exhaust manifold has a different thickness flange than the inlet manifold (this was the same situation with the MPi inlet manifold) so I'll have to make a set of shims for this.
2. It's very difficult to access the inner branch studs for fitting the manifold nut too. Also the MPi nuts (which have an in-built spreader washer doesn't seem to fit, so I'll have to find out the thread size and get some alternative nuts.
3. The throttle cable on the SC set up exits the throttle body vertically, whereas on the MPi set up it exits horizontally. This could be (will be) a problem with the bonnet in place.
Bent - did you see this throttle cable problem? How did you address this? |
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| jimnaylor |
| Posted on: February 20th, 2021, 19:38:40 |
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| Bent Larsen |
| Posted on: February 21st, 2021, 11:29:44 |
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Location: Denmark
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| I used a throttle cable to an MC |
Last modified April 27th, 2021, 18:19:19 by Bent Larsen |
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: March 6th, 2021, 17:11:35 |
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Hi Bent, I'm not quite following your reply. Are you saying you just bent the throttle cable under the bonnet? What are you referring to with the MC?
Jim - I hadn't seen one of those brackets before. Good to know an alternative solution could be out there. I'm going to try and get things running first with the bonnet removed. I might look to see if I can change the angle of the SC cable bracket slightly, but if Bent has managed to get this set up running just by bending the throttle cable under the bonnet, I might be looking for a problem that isn't there. |
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| Bent Larsen |
Posted on: March 7th, 2021, 11:11:15
Attachment: cable.jpg - 32.19 KB (2199 views) |
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Location: Denmark
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Something like this:
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: April 2nd, 2021, 09:43:24 |
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Bent,
Sorry for the delayed reply, but I'll definitely need a throttle cable like this. I've started fitting the kit and the existing cable is mounted solidly vertically - no way I'd get the bonnet fitted.
So this type of cable will be required. I'll use what I've got to get the car running for now and once there will have a cable made up.
I assume these will have a PTFE liner to prevent the cable from sticking.
ETA - I'm also a little worried as the air filter is hard up against the bulkhead of the car. Not sure what I can do about that (other than remove the air filter and fit a sock on the trumpet. And I'm a little confused over what breather pipes connect where on the new system. I'll try and compare the original inlet manifold to the new one I guess. |
Last modified April 2nd, 2021, 09:45:26 by Graham Bichard |
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: May 19th, 2021, 15:02:46 |
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Maximum Member2
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Quick update. I've got the injection unit fitted now, but can't get the car started as there's no spark coming out of the coil pack.
I've been in contact with Specialist Components who have directed me to Specialist Control Systems Ltd (who supply the ECU) who are very helpful.
From the software it can be seen that there is no crank signal being picked up. I 'think' the crank sensor is good (the car ran with the MEMS ECU fitted), but am looking to get my hands on another one tomorrow to try.
I do have an aftermarket (Minispares) lightened MPI flywheel fitted - it might be that the gap for the sensor is slightly larger using this flywheel but I'm hoping that another sensor might get it up and running. (Can't really be bothered with changing out the flywheel at this stage  ). I'll let you know how I get on.
Once it's up and running I'll get the throttle cable sorted, bonnet put back on and another IVA booked, but am not holding my breath at this point...
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: May 24th, 2021, 11:33:25 |
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Maximum Member2
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It lives!!!
Got it running yesterday after changing the crank sensor. Strange that it failed at the particular time that I'm changing the fuel injection system (it wasn't disturbed other than unplugging the old loom, plugging in the new loom).
But it works
I need to set the idle speed (the engine needs to be thoroughly warmed through for this and I want to get the car out of the garage to do this, not just have the exhaust adjacent to the open garage door), and there is a stumble at a 'fast idle' throttle opening which would stall the car if I held it at that speed. I guess this is what needs to be mapped out for this specific engine.
So next stage is to warm it through, set the idle then get the emissions checked at the local garage. Depending on that either get it car mapped or submit for another IVA (mapping to follow once on the road). I'll get a 'right angle' throttle cable on order too so I can fit the bonnet, as per Bent's photo. Ultimately I will need to modify the throttle pedal/cable as I can't get full throttle as it stands.
Happy days.
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Last modified May 24th, 2021, 11:33:46 by Graham Bichard |
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: May 26th, 2021, 18:39:17 |
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Maximum Member2
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Okay, so I can get the car started but it's started blowing the fuel pump fuse. Any ideas - bad earth perhaps?
I'll need to sort this before I can set the idle and then get the emissions tested |
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: May 27th, 2021, 14:15:41 |
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Maximum Member2
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Okay, so wiring checked (nothing unusual found), jump leads on to ensure enough juice available and the car starts and runs fine. Go figure.
Could a weak battery cause a fuse to blow?
Anyway, with throttle blips I managed to get the car warmed up and the idle speed sorted. It still stalled after 20-30 seconds at idle. Another phone call to Matthew at Specialist Control Systems (who make the ECU and write the code) showed me how to enrichen the mixture across the whole map (trying to do individual points leads to a downward spiral of doom apparently) which looks to have sorted the idle for the moment.
I've just spoken to my local garage and am going to have an emissions test done tomorrow, which will give me some idea of where we're at. Fingers crossed!
Big thanks to SCS though for their assistance, both on the phone and across TeamViewer, to get this far.
ETA I should add that the fuelling map can be adjusted on individual points, but that this is something to be done (by someone who knows what they're doing) during a rolling road session. That's the first thing I'll be looking to do once I've got the car past IVA. |
Last modified May 27th, 2021, 14:18:40 by Graham Bichard |
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| Graham Bichard |
| Posted on: May 28th, 2021, 13:39:42 |
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Maximum Member2
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Ho hum.
So we've got the engine running on the Specialist Component kit, but after testing the emissions there's a story to tell (nothing's ever simple). I'll continue the story now in the main thread.
And if anyone's got a bag of enthusiasm going spare..... |
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Mini Marcos Forum > General Boards > Mini Marcos > Specialist Components fuel injection system
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